I like “the menu” a lot as a framework for thinking about this. I’m not sure “agentic” is a single thing though, actually… I ca think of a couple of axes:
- conformity vs individualism: that’s where the “get weirder friends” advice fits in. Personally I had a really hard time fitting in when I was younger even when I wanted to, which kind of kicked me out of some of the more straightforward menu options
- fear vs risk-taking: sometimes people eye stuff that’s not on the menu but are too afraid to order it. I think this is a continual growth area even for “agentic” people where you keep growing in your own confidence of what’s doable
- falling in love with doing something: I think most people who do impressive or unusual things fall in love with an activity, whether it’s sports or writing or coding or painting or getting to know strangers or whatever. This is the heart of the matter, why you would WANT to be agentic
I think you probably need a little of all 3 to do something really interesting with your life, but I think the mix varies by person
I don't generally experience mimetic desire so it seems like this kind of thing should be right up my alley. But I'll confess to not understanding something quite basic: how do such people earn money to live? Brian Eno is a neat example of the vibe but I have to guess that contributing to some pop music hits secured a lifetime of rotalties, an uncommon payoff.
If you genuinely push for excellence/the frontier, it's totally possible to receive substantial philanthropic funding for most people. Overcoming fear is important here, not just temporarily suppressing it. But yeah, you do need to be able to fund yourself for 1-2 years until you produce legible output - but that's not a huge challenge. Separating money making and meaningful work might be necessary.
Yeah, there's a lot compressed in that message. I agree that as it stands it's easy to disagree with my sentences. There's a long explanation that I don't have time for right now that I'm pretty sure boils down to "if you're willing to work hard and on non-glamorous things, most people can build up the affordance to make a living and be agentic within 1-2 years."
This is so well written! Makes me understand agency better than ever before. I can see where I stand: relatively high agency with an unnecessary amount of second guessing / self doubt.
As a high agency jazz musician, I deeply enjoyed this. I find most of your points useful. One place where we diverge is your suggestion that capital and courage are rarely the bottleneck, and that agency is deeper than both. If agency is participatory, then the field of participation cannot be secondary or adjacent. If self and world co-constitute each other, then our structures (economic, institutional, social) aren’t peripheral, but part of the field within which agency emerges. For many people the issue isn’t lack of will or worldview, but the cost of deviation. Eventually we face the question: how much sacrifice can an individual reasonably absorb in order to actualize a direction?
I believe I would be sliding quite dramatically towards stronger agentic order of things, as I deeply resonate with this framework of cognitive processing on a day to day level- as in, though I may design and create a very thorough and effective task list, I also have to factor in that more than 80% of the possibility of the task being done depends heavily on my "internal resonance" at the time. First and foremost, I have to conjure an image of me having accomplished said task, then consider the resources required to get to that place of accomplishment.
And as such a person, who has had _just enough_ privilege to afford making low-risk agentic choices all their life without the threat of mortality, regardless of the cost of "deviation" I would consider agency as a core functionality of 'I'. Though I have never been able to assimilate into collectives neatly, nor have my lived experiences been linear or easy to comprehend, had all sorts of aunties from varying cultures and walks of life regard me with varying levels of disdain, every agentic decision was made with the utmost epistemic virtue given the conditions.
And as such, despite living in a hyper capitalist system as a slave to money, I believe I have lived with the utmost dedication to my agency.
I deeply appreciate and enjoy your expression. I admire how your mind weaves information together - balancing artistic imagery and symbolism perfectly with logical reasoning; intellectualized and coherent without being dry or lifeless.
I wanted to add to the ‘how do people afford it’ discussion. I live in agentia. And what happens is, when I set off on my little journey with my compass pointing straight, I look up and down, left and right, and sometimes I see a little bush with some berries on it and I stop to eat them. Sometimes, I stop for a few days. And sometimes, I stop for a few years. And sometimes I learn to make jam, and then I pick up again and I keep going. Sometimes, on my journeys I come across other travellers who can give me a few snacks and I’ll exchange that for some jam or some stories that I encountered on my journey. Yes, there is privilege!! I’m healthy enough to walk around, I have a good passport and I’m blessed with endurance and curiosity. I can tell a good story and people care to listen.
But for the most part, this journey and the way you journey really is illegible until you do it. The idea of capital as you know it disappears once you do away with the menu because every skill and experience you have becomes a useful part of your new inventory. Even if you don’t have any jam on you, when you see those berries again, you know you can make it!!
It's interesting for me to see how many responses have been from a capital and class based perspective and how many have been from a cognitive and behavioral space.
I think one piece not covered here is confidence. Maybe similar to depression, I dunno
I find in myself, I am pretty solid about resisting memetic desire and seeing a wide array of possibilities I could pursue. I think this stems from confidence in my intellectual abilities, which is pretty durable. But self-confidence socially and in my ability to carry out things in the real world (or without making a fool of myself) holds me back most of the time.
But I have intermittent periods of very high agency when some stars align in my world.
Beautiful and just what I needed to read today, as I begin a 3 day writing retreat.
Thank you for giving me a phrase. I think I am at the fairly high end of the agentic spectrum. But for most of my life, even now, I have wished I didn't have to be, even if I am grateful to myself for having made many of my decisions from off the menu. I have always chased understanding and later, meaning. There are worse things to chase!
I am hereby pledging support, but have to monkey with my credit card on file. I hate all the banks.
I like “the menu” a lot as a framework for thinking about this. I’m not sure “agentic” is a single thing though, actually… I ca think of a couple of axes:
- conformity vs individualism: that’s where the “get weirder friends” advice fits in. Personally I had a really hard time fitting in when I was younger even when I wanted to, which kind of kicked me out of some of the more straightforward menu options
- fear vs risk-taking: sometimes people eye stuff that’s not on the menu but are too afraid to order it. I think this is a continual growth area even for “agentic” people where you keep growing in your own confidence of what’s doable
- falling in love with doing something: I think most people who do impressive or unusual things fall in love with an activity, whether it’s sports or writing or coding or painting or getting to know strangers or whatever. This is the heart of the matter, why you would WANT to be agentic
I think you probably need a little of all 3 to do something really interesting with your life, but I think the mix varies by person
Thank you, these are great additions
I don't generally experience mimetic desire so it seems like this kind of thing should be right up my alley. But I'll confess to not understanding something quite basic: how do such people earn money to live? Brian Eno is a neat example of the vibe but I have to guess that contributing to some pop music hits secured a lifetime of rotalties, an uncommon payoff.
Typically being of high agency requires privilege or success to fund one’s own way. The way they achieve is often like no other.
What this article doesn't touch on is that such eccentric people often don't make much money unless they explicitly try to make lots of money.
If you genuinely push for excellence/the frontier, it's totally possible to receive substantial philanthropic funding for most people. Overcoming fear is important here, not just temporarily suppressing it. But yeah, you do need to be able to fund yourself for 1-2 years until you produce legible output - but that's not a huge challenge. Separating money making and meaningful work might be necessary.
"totally possible for most people"
"not a huge challenge"
I think we have different understandings of the meanings of these phrases.
Yeah, there's a lot compressed in that message. I agree that as it stands it's easy to disagree with my sentences. There's a long explanation that I don't have time for right now that I'm pretty sure boils down to "if you're willing to work hard and on non-glamorous things, most people can build up the affordance to make a living and be agentic within 1-2 years."
This is so well written! Makes me understand agency better than ever before. I can see where I stand: relatively high agency with an unnecessary amount of second guessing / self doubt.
Thank you
Same
As a high agency jazz musician, I deeply enjoyed this. I find most of your points useful. One place where we diverge is your suggestion that capital and courage are rarely the bottleneck, and that agency is deeper than both. If agency is participatory, then the field of participation cannot be secondary or adjacent. If self and world co-constitute each other, then our structures (economic, institutional, social) aren’t peripheral, but part of the field within which agency emerges. For many people the issue isn’t lack of will or worldview, but the cost of deviation. Eventually we face the question: how much sacrifice can an individual reasonably absorb in order to actualize a direction?
Thanks for the thoughtful comment. It's a fair point that capital and courage are also relevant. However, I believe that the worldview runs deeper.
I know many people with capital and courage but still no agency. And also high agency people blocked by those who figured out a way eventually.
But yes, privilege plays a big role and living paycheck to paycheck undercuts the slack necessary to live a high agency life.
I believe I would be sliding quite dramatically towards stronger agentic order of things, as I deeply resonate with this framework of cognitive processing on a day to day level- as in, though I may design and create a very thorough and effective task list, I also have to factor in that more than 80% of the possibility of the task being done depends heavily on my "internal resonance" at the time. First and foremost, I have to conjure an image of me having accomplished said task, then consider the resources required to get to that place of accomplishment.
And as such a person, who has had _just enough_ privilege to afford making low-risk agentic choices all their life without the threat of mortality, regardless of the cost of "deviation" I would consider agency as a core functionality of 'I'. Though I have never been able to assimilate into collectives neatly, nor have my lived experiences been linear or easy to comprehend, had all sorts of aunties from varying cultures and walks of life regard me with varying levels of disdain, every agentic decision was made with the utmost epistemic virtue given the conditions.
And as such, despite living in a hyper capitalist system as a slave to money, I believe I have lived with the utmost dedication to my agency.
I lack agency because if I leave my current role without moving to an in kind position my family loses their home, their insurance.
Free will for a large tranche if the socio economic classes is an illusion
I hear you!
I subscribed when I read the word “zugzwang”
I deeply appreciate and enjoy your expression. I admire how your mind weaves information together - balancing artistic imagery and symbolism perfectly with logical reasoning; intellectualized and coherent without being dry or lifeless.
Thank you.
Appreciate it
jazz ultimately is extra musical, it's cultural and historical
https://discuss.openlearning.cc/t/appreciating-a-pattern-language-through-views-of-a-jazz-language/302
note particularly the last link therein... jazz pattern, "slavery versus humanity" (greg tate)
I wanted to add to the ‘how do people afford it’ discussion. I live in agentia. And what happens is, when I set off on my little journey with my compass pointing straight, I look up and down, left and right, and sometimes I see a little bush with some berries on it and I stop to eat them. Sometimes, I stop for a few days. And sometimes, I stop for a few years. And sometimes I learn to make jam, and then I pick up again and I keep going. Sometimes, on my journeys I come across other travellers who can give me a few snacks and I’ll exchange that for some jam or some stories that I encountered on my journey. Yes, there is privilege!! I’m healthy enough to walk around, I have a good passport and I’m blessed with endurance and curiosity. I can tell a good story and people care to listen.
But for the most part, this journey and the way you journey really is illegible until you do it. The idea of capital as you know it disappears once you do away with the menu because every skill and experience you have becomes a useful part of your new inventory. Even if you don’t have any jam on you, when you see those berries again, you know you can make it!!
Thanks for sharing this!
It's interesting for me to see how many responses have been from a capital and class based perspective and how many have been from a cognitive and behavioral space.
My low agency comes from fear and doubt rather than a lack of imagination. I think making weirder friends would indeed help.
Yes and working on the fear directly.
This has some useful pointers:
https://www.lesswrong.com/s/qXZLFGqpD7aeEgXGL/p/QqtQoHSjjfLgC4jDZ
Really insightful piece, thanks.
I think one piece not covered here is confidence. Maybe similar to depression, I dunno
I find in myself, I am pretty solid about resisting memetic desire and seeing a wide array of possibilities I could pursue. I think this stems from confidence in my intellectual abilities, which is pretty durable. But self-confidence socially and in my ability to carry out things in the real world (or without making a fool of myself) holds me back most of the time.
But I have intermittent periods of very high agency when some stars align in my world.
So high agency ppl feel safe, secure in themselves.
How will you ask a traumatised to be agentic?
Tremendously beautiful, thank you. Almost feels like a reclamation of the phrase into its natural unfolding form.
Beautiful and just what I needed to read today, as I begin a 3 day writing retreat.
Thank you for giving me a phrase. I think I am at the fairly high end of the agentic spectrum. But for most of my life, even now, I have wished I didn't have to be, even if I am grateful to myself for having made many of my decisions from off the menu. I have always chased understanding and later, meaning. There are worse things to chase!
I am hereby pledging support, but have to monkey with my credit card on file. I hate all the banks.
Thank you, Debbie
Agree that meaning is a good thing to chase
I converted this into a sermon for a progressive pastor friend. Good stuff.